At least we now know that the car pictured below started life as a saloon and not a driving chassis.
KR 5670
Moderators: Ian Grace, Will Grace
Re: KR 5670
I have found the photo I've been looking for of a Hornet chassis being bodied by Maltbys as a coupe in their Folkestone works. It was published in an article on Maltbys in M 107. It is not known how many early Hornets were re-bodied from saloons by Maltby, but there could not have been many (we have found two that were re-bodied by Hoyal). So, it is intriguing to think that this might be the car that donated its saloon body to KR 5670.
At least we now know that the car pictured below started life as a saloon and not a driving chassis.
At least we now know that the car pictured below started life as a saloon and not a driving chassis.
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Ken Martin
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:05 am
Re: KR 5670
Ian
I can't understand your logic! Surely this car left the factory as a chassis as did many Hornets of the period. There were probably more Hornets with proprietary special bodies built on factory chassis than any other make including Austin 7, Bentley and RR. I don't think you have solved the mystery of KR yet!
Ken
I can't understand your logic! Surely this car left the factory as a chassis as did many Hornets of the period. There were probably more Hornets with proprietary special bodies built on factory chassis than any other make including Austin 7, Bentley and RR. I don't think you have solved the mystery of KR yet!
Ken
Re: KR 5670
Ken,
There is a big distinction between the early OHC Hornets of the 1930 season and the later Hornet specials. There were about 2,500 of the early Hornets built, and Gaydon production records show that ALL of them were either saloons or coupes - not a single one left the works as a chassis. By contrast, the later Hornets were delivered wholesale in chassis form to the coachbuilders.
So we now know that the Hornet being rebodied in the photo MUST have left the works with a saloon body fitted - because who would remove one coupe body to fit another?
There is a big distinction between the early OHC Hornets of the 1930 season and the later Hornet specials. There were about 2,500 of the early Hornets built, and Gaydon production records show that ALL of them were either saloons or coupes - not a single one left the works as a chassis. By contrast, the later Hornets were delivered wholesale in chassis form to the coachbuilders.
So we now know that the Hornet being rebodied in the photo MUST have left the works with a saloon body fitted - because who would remove one coupe body to fit another?
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Ken Martin
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:05 am
Re: KR 5670
Ian
I can’t dispute your statement regarding the production records because I have never seen them.
However, I have a photo of a Hornet special which is on an early chassis judging by the three stud small hub wheels. The Hornet Special expert Dick Serjeantsen has been baffled by it and still hasn’t come up with an answer. The last time I saw him about a year ago he was producing a book on these cars but the car in my picture was still a mystery to him, I conclude that perhaps you can’t be too sure!
Ken
I can’t dispute your statement regarding the production records because I have never seen them.
However, I have a photo of a Hornet special which is on an early chassis judging by the three stud small hub wheels. The Hornet Special expert Dick Serjeantsen has been baffled by it and still hasn’t come up with an answer. The last time I saw him about a year ago he was producing a book on these cars but the car in my picture was still a mystery to him, I conclude that perhaps you can’t be too sure!
Ken
Re: KR 5670
I have been told that if you look in the adverts sections of Motor and Autocar in the early thirties there were lots of adverts for Wolseley Hornet saloon bodies.
Re: KR 5670
The production records for the approximately 2,500 1930 season Hornets are kept at Gaydon. They differ from the Morris Progress Books in several respects. First, they are all in loose leaf folders which makes research much slower and more difficult. However, we have established, as I mentioned before, that no chassis left the works - they were all either coachbuilt saloons, fabric saloons or a few coupes. The records differ with respect to the Morris records in another significant way. Recorded are cars that were subsequently re-bodied, but left the works with saloon bodies, the body numbers of which are recorded. So far we have found two such saloons that were re-bodied by Hoyle & Co., and more are being searched for in the files. It may only be a matter of time until we find the chassis that was fitted with body WF527 (the body now on my Minor).
There are a number of other surviving early Hornets that have coachbuilt bodies, and the production records appear to prove that these all started life as factory-bodied cars. The rumours of saloon bodies being offered in the trade press at the time seems to support this.
Until we find such a hard reference to the chassis with body number WF527 in the production records, it is unlikely that that the theory of the genesis of this car can be proven beyond doubt, but it certainly looks this way right now, and in the absence of any alternative theory, backed up by production record evidence, I think it is by far the most plausible theory.
Whatever its genesis, it is by far the lowest-mileage and unworn Minor I have ever owned (and I've owned over thirty in the past 35 years). It is a joy to work on and should be an even bigger joy to drive.
There are a number of other surviving early Hornets that have coachbuilt bodies, and the production records appear to prove that these all started life as factory-bodied cars. The rumours of saloon bodies being offered in the trade press at the time seems to support this.
Until we find such a hard reference to the chassis with body number WF527 in the production records, it is unlikely that that the theory of the genesis of this car can be proven beyond doubt, but it certainly looks this way right now, and in the absence of any alternative theory, backed up by production record evidence, I think it is by far the most plausible theory.
Whatever its genesis, it is by far the lowest-mileage and unworn Minor I have ever owned (and I've owned over thirty in the past 35 years). It is a joy to work on and should be an even bigger joy to drive.
Re: KR 5670
Found it!
Body No. WF.527
Car No.82420
Engine No.1260/5PU
Distributor No.789 (Lucas)
Dynamo No.16943 (Lucas)
Axle No.1352/5RA, (ratio 9/43)
Black with Cream top
Red Rexine
Black wheels
Date of delivery 24 June 1930
Date record sheet 26 June 1930
The dates are particularly interesting, as this Hornet must have been delivered directly to Maltbys, the body removed, fitted to the Minor chassis and registered KR 5670 by 9th July i.e. in just two weeks. Maltby probably had the Minor chassis already in stock, as it was despatched from Cowley on the 19th May. This implies that the customer for the Hornet had plans all set up with Maltby for the re-bodying before he bought the car. Now I need to find Hornet 82420!
Body No. WF.527
Car No.82420
Engine No.1260/5PU
Distributor No.789 (Lucas)
Dynamo No.16943 (Lucas)
Axle No.1352/5RA, (ratio 9/43)
Black with Cream top
Red Rexine
Black wheels
Date of delivery 24 June 1930
Date record sheet 26 June 1930
The dates are particularly interesting, as this Hornet must have been delivered directly to Maltbys, the body removed, fitted to the Minor chassis and registered KR 5670 by 9th July i.e. in just two weeks. Maltby probably had the Minor chassis already in stock, as it was despatched from Cowley on the 19th May. This implies that the customer for the Hornet had plans all set up with Maltby for the re-bodying before he bought the car. Now I need to find Hornet 82420!
Re: KR 5670
Have you sent those details to Ron Turner the registrar of the Wolseley Hornet Special Club as he may be able to help.
Re: KR 5670
Hi Simon,
I got these details from Derek Tew who works at Gaydon and is in the WHSC - and I'm also in touch with Ann Pardoe regarding the car, and who confirms that Pre-War Prescott 2012 is now firmly on the WHSC calendar of events for next year. I have asked them if this Hornet chassis has survived.
I got these details from Derek Tew who works at Gaydon and is in the WHSC - and I'm also in touch with Ann Pardoe regarding the car, and who confirms that Pre-War Prescott 2012 is now firmly on the WHSC calendar of events for next year. I have asked them if this Hornet chassis has survived.
Re: KR 5670
HI Ian,
Have a look on the Prewar Minor website Hornet section. There is a picture of a Maltby Hornet reg KR9330 - could that be on "your chassis".
Have a look on the Prewar Minor website Hornet section. There is a picture of a Maltby Hornet reg KR9330 - could that be on "your chassis".
Re: KR 5670
Not likely - that's a 1931 number.
Re: KR 5670
Finally found time to cycle each of the road wheels through the local tyre shop to have new inner tubes and rim tapes fitted, so now the car is about three inches higher than it has been for some time! This also means that I can now easily roll the car in and out of the garage to get better access to it and work on it. However, as this is now well into the rainy season here in Seattle, opportunities to get it out in the dry and in daylight are currently few and far beween, but I do have some time off over Christmas, so I'm hopeful of a firing up over the holidays. 
The McEvoy is next for the same treatment, as it is also sitting on four flat tyres.
The McEvoy is next for the same treatment, as it is also sitting on four flat tyres.
Re: KR 5670
A day of ups and downs today. It was the first day of fine, dry weather - blue skies and in the high fifties, so time to get everything out of the garage and give it a good old sweep out of winter leaves and general rubbish. Decided to fit my new Enots fuel tap in KR, so I can fill it with fuel as a prelude to firing up. Simple job, you would have thought? Far from it...
I discovered that the tap I had removed was not only unserviceable and non-standard, but it had a much smaller diameter thread than the new Enots. Hmmm. Check the tank - sure enough the tank has been modified! There is a flat plate where the conical tank sump should be with a smaller threaded hole to take the tap. So the new Enots tap is useless! And worse, I have thrown away the tap that came out as it was useless, so I have no idea what thread the hole is. *&^%$#!!!
Or, maybe the Wolseley Hornet tanks/taps are different? Nope - checked the Hornet parts list - the tap is the same.
But then a stroke of luck. I was fiddling around by the Tiger Moth fuel tank and noticed that it has a drain tap which looks like it might just be the right diameter. Unscrew it, and yes! It screws into the Minor tank! It's only a drain tap so cannot be connected to the pipe to the carb., but at least the thread is the same one - looks like 1/4" pipe thread, whereas the Enots is 3/8". Paul Beck has 1/4" taps, so back to the drawing board.
So after that, I turned my attention to the McEvoy engine. It has been dismantled for decades and stored badly, so everything is covered in filth, rust and moderate to severe pitting. The good news is that I found in all the bits the spiral gear for the front of the crank which I thought was missing. Cleaned it up and it is fine. I then spent the next couple of hours with emery cloth and WD40, cleaning the front end of the crank, the timing chain sprocket, bottom pulley, starter dog - all now trial assembled successfully. I just need to get the crank to the engine shop and see if the big end journals can be ground to remove the pitting while leaving enough meat on the crank. Can anyone tell me the minimum safe diameter for re-grinding the big ends?
Finally, I had the Sprite battery on charge while all this was going on, and so I was able to fire it up - let it idle for about half an hour to warm through. If it is fine again tomorrow, I'll give it a blast up the lane to blow the cobwebs away. So quite a good day on balance, and hopefully the first of many in 2012.
I discovered that the tap I had removed was not only unserviceable and non-standard, but it had a much smaller diameter thread than the new Enots. Hmmm. Check the tank - sure enough the tank has been modified! There is a flat plate where the conical tank sump should be with a smaller threaded hole to take the tap. So the new Enots tap is useless! And worse, I have thrown away the tap that came out as it was useless, so I have no idea what thread the hole is. *&^%$#!!!
Or, maybe the Wolseley Hornet tanks/taps are different? Nope - checked the Hornet parts list - the tap is the same.
But then a stroke of luck. I was fiddling around by the Tiger Moth fuel tank and noticed that it has a drain tap which looks like it might just be the right diameter. Unscrew it, and yes! It screws into the Minor tank! It's only a drain tap so cannot be connected to the pipe to the carb., but at least the thread is the same one - looks like 1/4" pipe thread, whereas the Enots is 3/8". Paul Beck has 1/4" taps, so back to the drawing board.
So after that, I turned my attention to the McEvoy engine. It has been dismantled for decades and stored badly, so everything is covered in filth, rust and moderate to severe pitting. The good news is that I found in all the bits the spiral gear for the front of the crank which I thought was missing. Cleaned it up and it is fine. I then spent the next couple of hours with emery cloth and WD40, cleaning the front end of the crank, the timing chain sprocket, bottom pulley, starter dog - all now trial assembled successfully. I just need to get the crank to the engine shop and see if the big end journals can be ground to remove the pitting while leaving enough meat on the crank. Can anyone tell me the minimum safe diameter for re-grinding the big ends?
Finally, I had the Sprite battery on charge while all this was going on, and so I was able to fire it up - let it idle for about half an hour to warm through. If it is fine again tomorrow, I'll give it a blast up the lane to blow the cobwebs away. So quite a good day on balance, and hopefully the first of many in 2012.
Re: KR 5670
I can't believe it has been over a year since I last reported here! I did get the engine running last summer, as reported in the Magazine, and started overhauling the brakes. But without radiator hoses, and having no fuel tap, I could only run it one carb. full at a time. After that, I concentrated on stripping the McEvoy to the bare chassis, working on the Tiger Moth and the usual summer activities here which involve mowing about four hours a day to keep the grass down and a fight to a prickly death trying to keep acres of blackberries at bay.
Now I have ordered a package of spares from Mike Dowley which should be here soon and I am determined to get KR driving this summer. In the package are water hoses, water jacket sideplates, bolts and rubber gaskets, then everything I need to overhaul the brakes - brake cams and bushes, brake shoe return spring, hub felt washers, rear hub paper gaskets. So with that little lot, I should be able to make it go - and stop. But I also need to re-wire her as the original wiring isn't up to it any more. Right now I have a 'hot' wire running directly from the battery to the coil. So the instrument panel will have to come out - a job I never like doing. It is such a fiddle with wires that are too short, the speedo cable and oil pipe to frustrate.
Where we live is a challenging area for Minor motoring. We live about half a mile up from Highway 2 which runs from Everett (just north of Seattle, where the big Boeing plant is) up and over the Cascade mountains - this is Stevens Pass - one of two passes through the mountains east of Seattle. We live about 30 miles from the summit (which is at just over 4,000 ft), but are surrounded by mountains rising to over 5,000 ft. But, if I turn left out of the drive then the lane climbs up into the hills through dense evergreen forest - winding and climbing like a 5 mile Prescott! It makes an excellent test hill and I have had some spectacular and hairy blasts up there in the Sprite and the XK8, but it will be a real test for a Minor saloon!
However, last year we bought a Land Rover Discovery and all I need now it s suitable trailer and I can take the saloon anywhere. In particular, one of our favourite haunts are the San Juan Islands about 70 miles north of here. They lie half way between the US mainland and Vancouver Island which is part of Canada. There are over 400 islands in the archipelago, but four are large enough to be populated and served by the Washington State Ferries. They contain a network of peaceful and extremely scenic country lanes with frequent breathaking vistas across the straits to the mainland, Vancouver island and the other San Juans. The islands would make THE perfect location for a VMR rally!
So the plan is to get KR driving and road-reliable and then trail it up to the islands for weekends. Should make for some great pics for the Magazine!
So all I need now is for the rain to stop so I can pull the car out of the garage and get to work. There is NO room to work in the garage - here you can just see the yellow roof of KR jammed in behind the Queen Bee and the Tiger Moth. Next project - build a workshop! (Believe it or not, the Sprite and McEvoy are in there too!)
Now I have ordered a package of spares from Mike Dowley which should be here soon and I am determined to get KR driving this summer. In the package are water hoses, water jacket sideplates, bolts and rubber gaskets, then everything I need to overhaul the brakes - brake cams and bushes, brake shoe return spring, hub felt washers, rear hub paper gaskets. So with that little lot, I should be able to make it go - and stop. But I also need to re-wire her as the original wiring isn't up to it any more. Right now I have a 'hot' wire running directly from the battery to the coil. So the instrument panel will have to come out - a job I never like doing. It is such a fiddle with wires that are too short, the speedo cable and oil pipe to frustrate.
Where we live is a challenging area for Minor motoring. We live about half a mile up from Highway 2 which runs from Everett (just north of Seattle, where the big Boeing plant is) up and over the Cascade mountains - this is Stevens Pass - one of two passes through the mountains east of Seattle. We live about 30 miles from the summit (which is at just over 4,000 ft), but are surrounded by mountains rising to over 5,000 ft. But, if I turn left out of the drive then the lane climbs up into the hills through dense evergreen forest - winding and climbing like a 5 mile Prescott! It makes an excellent test hill and I have had some spectacular and hairy blasts up there in the Sprite and the XK8, but it will be a real test for a Minor saloon!
However, last year we bought a Land Rover Discovery and all I need now it s suitable trailer and I can take the saloon anywhere. In particular, one of our favourite haunts are the San Juan Islands about 70 miles north of here. They lie half way between the US mainland and Vancouver Island which is part of Canada. There are over 400 islands in the archipelago, but four are large enough to be populated and served by the Washington State Ferries. They contain a network of peaceful and extremely scenic country lanes with frequent breathaking vistas across the straits to the mainland, Vancouver island and the other San Juans. The islands would make THE perfect location for a VMR rally!
So the plan is to get KR driving and road-reliable and then trail it up to the islands for weekends. Should make for some great pics for the Magazine!
So all I need now is for the rain to stop so I can pull the car out of the garage and get to work. There is NO room to work in the garage - here you can just see the yellow roof of KR jammed in behind the Queen Bee and the Tiger Moth. Next project - build a workshop! (Believe it or not, the Sprite and McEvoy are in there too!)
Re: KR 5670
Ian,
Did you sort the fuel tap? My early minor has the tap soldered up, presumably due to leaks, and whilst usable would be good to incorporate a reserve facility. I'm sure I have seen some motorcycle taps that work on the same principle as the scuttle tank minor taps but be blowed if I can locate them.
Regards,
Philip
Did you sort the fuel tap? My early minor has the tap soldered up, presumably due to leaks, and whilst usable would be good to incorporate a reserve facility. I'm sure I have seen some motorcycle taps that work on the same principle as the scuttle tank minor taps but be blowed if I can locate them.
Regards,
Philip