I, too, agree with the last two views.
The rolling chassis are bound to survive longer than the bodies , and it is important to keep them on the road.
I am not an enthusiast for putting just any body on the chassis , I would like to keep some authenticity , but if some more of the rarer bespoke bodied minors were around now we would be over the moon trying to keep them running.
Tony G
Hundred Pound ash frames
Moderators: Ian Grace, Will Grace
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Tony Gamble
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:16 pm
- Location: Selby , North Yorkshire. UK
Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
The saddest thing I have seen over the time or running the Register is the rebodying of Semi-sports HX 8980 for trials. Of course it is great to see the car out on the hills regularly and giving the Sevens an increasingly good run for their money, but it might have been better to create the car from a bodyless saloon chassis or such rather than destroying a restorable Semi-sports. Sorry, Martin, if you are reading this!
Martin's other trials special is also built on an original Semi-sports chassis frame - the one I bought from Jack Blyth in New Zealand which turned out to have originally been a Semi-sports when I checked the chassis number against the Genome. But of course, the cost and complexity of recreating an authentic Semi-sports out of this bare chassis would have far outstripped its value.
I'll certainly get all the reference info. needed from the Monroe Hundred Pounder and then at least the data will be available should anyone want to build one - or run off a batch to defray the cost of their body - which is what I did with the three Semi-sports ash frames. Having said that, it took years for the two spare bodies to sell. (Bit of a story here - I had the completed ash frame for JN 570 on a stand at Beaulieu to promote the sale of the other two kits. A chap came up and wanted to buy just the B-posts from one of the kits. I agreed, knowing that I could make another pair to make the kit complete once again. The purchaser refused to give me any information about his car, which ultimately turned out to be LJ 4435 - the Bed-Pan (whose history was completely unknown at that time). When I acquired this car from him about ten years later, he had fitted these two B-posts, but the rest of the body (and the mechanics) was a shambles and I had to replace about 90% of the ash frame!)
I'll also be interested to see how much of the sills/scuttle, etc. match those of the Semi-sports, from which the Hundred Pound 2-seater seems to have been developed. I have a feeling that the windscreen, although of identical design, is a slightly different width - but I couldn't swear to it.
Martin's other trials special is also built on an original Semi-sports chassis frame - the one I bought from Jack Blyth in New Zealand which turned out to have originally been a Semi-sports when I checked the chassis number against the Genome. But of course, the cost and complexity of recreating an authentic Semi-sports out of this bare chassis would have far outstripped its value.
I'll certainly get all the reference info. needed from the Monroe Hundred Pounder and then at least the data will be available should anyone want to build one - or run off a batch to defray the cost of their body - which is what I did with the three Semi-sports ash frames. Having said that, it took years for the two spare bodies to sell. (Bit of a story here - I had the completed ash frame for JN 570 on a stand at Beaulieu to promote the sale of the other two kits. A chap came up and wanted to buy just the B-posts from one of the kits. I agreed, knowing that I could make another pair to make the kit complete once again. The purchaser refused to give me any information about his car, which ultimately turned out to be LJ 4435 - the Bed-Pan (whose history was completely unknown at that time). When I acquired this car from him about ten years later, he had fitted these two B-posts, but the rest of the body (and the mechanics) was a shambles and I had to replace about 90% of the ash frame!)
I'll also be interested to see how much of the sills/scuttle, etc. match those of the Semi-sports, from which the Hundred Pound 2-seater seems to have been developed. I have a feeling that the windscreen, although of identical design, is a slightly different width - but I couldn't swear to it.
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prharris25
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:02 pm
- Location: Liss, Hampshire.
Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
The other further consideration which needs to be given to the building up of bitsa Minors (or any other vintage car) is that one day they will be passed off as original cars and bought by the unwary. This has happened many times in the Bullnose world and doubtless other marques as well. The other point, this time from the vintage Bentley world, is the destruction of perfectly restorable but rough saloon cars to produce (in the case of the Minor) yet another two seater or semi-sports. How many glorious vintage Bentley saloons have we lost in order to produce yet another ghastly brg fabric bodied Le Mans replica ?
It's bad enough that what must now be a very high percentage of vintage cars have lost their original registration numbers, add to this a replica body.... well, you would be much better building a kit car from modern components which would at least have the advantage of keeping up with modern traffic flows and have decent lights !!
It's bad enough that what must now be a very high percentage of vintage cars have lost their original registration numbers, add to this a replica body.... well, you would be much better building a kit car from modern components which would at least have the advantage of keeping up with modern traffic flows and have decent lights !!
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Mike Stubbings
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:41 pm
Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
I repeat myself. When that last surviving minor chassis is on the road, where will spares come from.I have been involved in the coachbuilding business for most of my life and was asked some 20yrs ago to build a replica body on a Riley nine which I did as accurately as possible. It was an open 2str. It was originally known as a special, I believe it now to be known as an original.A compliment to me maybe but not one I wanted. Also Riley nine chassis were available quite frequently in the seventies, to find one now can be a problem.I also believe it de-values the original it copies. Another problem is when all the bodiless chassis are used up, people start ripping good restorable saloon bodies off chassis and replacing them with easier build sports specials etc. I have also noticed over the last few years that as if someone had a spare rolling chassis they would be willing to sell it knowing they would find another sometime. As they have dried up they are now less likely to sell it knowing getting another becomes increasingly harder.
But I think it time to put this debate to bed as it has raged in other clubs for years and never resolved.
Everyone to his own, I respect other people,s opinion and I can see their point on view. I hope they see mine. Mike
But I think it time to put this debate to bed as it has raged in other clubs for years and never resolved.
Everyone to his own, I respect other people,s opinion and I can see their point on view. I hope they see mine. Mike
Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your insightful input and I agree with much of your sentiment. Of course, the driving force behind making Rileys, Austin 7s and other marques into sports models has come partly from the enhanced value of an open car over a saloon, but also from the fact that sports models are accepted in far more sporting events - in general, no saloons are allowed to enter speed events (with the notable exception of the VSCC's Colerne sprint where Chris Lambert famously entered his Minor saloon a few years back). It was also refreshing to see our Minor saloons (and Roger Burnett's gorgeous M Type Coupe) climbing Prescott at our two untimed climb days. I am sure that we would see far fewer Sevens in events, were they required by the regs to have their original bodies or not be allowed to compete (thinks - what a wicked idea!).
Unlike OHC Minors and M Types, SV Minors have virtually no opportunity to be entered in speed events and so the imperative to convert saloons is perhaps correspondingly less in their case.
I will be the first to admit that I pushed hard last year to obtain VSCC eligibility for at least the more vintage-esque SV Minors, and had this request been adopted, it might have increased the temptation to rebuild potentially restorable saloons as open models, but I think, on balance, the benefits afforded to SV owners by them becoming eligible would far outweigh this potential disadvantage, real though it is. The chief problem that eligibility posed for SV Minors was that SV Minors have traditionally been broken up to make M Types, which is a worse fate still. By making them eligible, this may have reduced the number of cars lost to this process (but I don't want to divert this thread into an eligibility debate!
).
The worst case of saloon abuse I have seen in the Minor world was when a well-known and perfectly standard OHC saloon used very successfully in VSCC and Light Car events over many years was re-bodied with a new tourer body, and the perpetrator acquired a new logbook to disguise his deed. The engine was also extensively uprated internally, but the car still competes in Light Car events where such modifications are not permitted. The original saloon body remains chassis-less to this day.
But to answer the question regarding the possible source of spares when the last surviving chassis is on the road, I would cite the case of the 18/80 MG. Virtually all known survivors have now been restored (and to an extremely high standard, too). Spares for them (where there is no Morris to rob!) are a problem, but I cannot imagine - if a bodyless 18/80 driving chassis turned up at this point - that anyone would seriously condone breaking it for spares for the others. And if it had originally been a saloon, I cannot imagine anyone going to the expense of recreating an 18/80 saloon body for it from scratch either.
On balance, my feeling is that, while this is definitely not a black and white issue, the pendulum is currently swung too far in the wrong direction for Minors - too many rolling chassis, nil availability of new bodies. Remember, too, that Minors now come under the eye of the VMR and each car's history (including re-bodying) is recorded as diligently as possible, so the chances of a Minor masquerading as something which it is not are slim in the extreme these days - at least while I'm around! I certainly know which are the original Semi-sports and which are replicas and all of them have been well-documented as such in the vsarious VMR Magazine for posterity.
Thanks for your insightful input and I agree with much of your sentiment. Of course, the driving force behind making Rileys, Austin 7s and other marques into sports models has come partly from the enhanced value of an open car over a saloon, but also from the fact that sports models are accepted in far more sporting events - in general, no saloons are allowed to enter speed events (with the notable exception of the VSCC's Colerne sprint where Chris Lambert famously entered his Minor saloon a few years back). It was also refreshing to see our Minor saloons (and Roger Burnett's gorgeous M Type Coupe) climbing Prescott at our two untimed climb days. I am sure that we would see far fewer Sevens in events, were they required by the regs to have their original bodies or not be allowed to compete (thinks - what a wicked idea!).
Unlike OHC Minors and M Types, SV Minors have virtually no opportunity to be entered in speed events and so the imperative to convert saloons is perhaps correspondingly less in their case.
I will be the first to admit that I pushed hard last year to obtain VSCC eligibility for at least the more vintage-esque SV Minors, and had this request been adopted, it might have increased the temptation to rebuild potentially restorable saloons as open models, but I think, on balance, the benefits afforded to SV owners by them becoming eligible would far outweigh this potential disadvantage, real though it is. The chief problem that eligibility posed for SV Minors was that SV Minors have traditionally been broken up to make M Types, which is a worse fate still. By making them eligible, this may have reduced the number of cars lost to this process (but I don't want to divert this thread into an eligibility debate!
).The worst case of saloon abuse I have seen in the Minor world was when a well-known and perfectly standard OHC saloon used very successfully in VSCC and Light Car events over many years was re-bodied with a new tourer body, and the perpetrator acquired a new logbook to disguise his deed. The engine was also extensively uprated internally, but the car still competes in Light Car events where such modifications are not permitted. The original saloon body remains chassis-less to this day.
But to answer the question regarding the possible source of spares when the last surviving chassis is on the road, I would cite the case of the 18/80 MG. Virtually all known survivors have now been restored (and to an extremely high standard, too). Spares for them (where there is no Morris to rob!) are a problem, but I cannot imagine - if a bodyless 18/80 driving chassis turned up at this point - that anyone would seriously condone breaking it for spares for the others. And if it had originally been a saloon, I cannot imagine anyone going to the expense of recreating an 18/80 saloon body for it from scratch either.
On balance, my feeling is that, while this is definitely not a black and white issue, the pendulum is currently swung too far in the wrong direction for Minors - too many rolling chassis, nil availability of new bodies. Remember, too, that Minors now come under the eye of the VMR and each car's history (including re-bodying) is recorded as diligently as possible, so the chances of a Minor masquerading as something which it is not are slim in the extreme these days - at least while I'm around!
I certainly know which are the original Semi-sports and which are replicas and all of them have been well-documented as such in the vsarious VMR Magazine for posterity.Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
I think the most enjoyment from vintage cars is using them and seeing them used; an understanding a static museum exhibit could never portray (although museums are important) If machines are used they always break and need new parts. Most of the famous pre-war ‘original’ racing cars and specials that have had a continuous racing history are substantially composed of new replica parts. On rarer exotic cars it is the value of the car that makes this possible. On Austin Sevens it is the shear number of owner drivers. Extremely desirable cars such as Breccias, type 35s and Frazer-Nash’s are now being made from scratch. In the long run, if the vintage movement is to continue as a movement who use their old cars they will have to except new parts. To make this viable it needs to ensure that the enthusiasm to use and drive old cars is as big as possible. This ensures that the living heritage of skills and industry continues. The problem comes when people become dis-honest and poor quality parts are made. So as a club I think there are several things we can:
• Help direct cars to the most relevant owners – un-restored saloons to those who want to restore them and bare chassis to those who want to build a special.
• Ensure replica parts are very accurate and stamped to show they are a new part.
• Get as many minors on the road as possible.
basically what Ian and the vmr or doing already.
I actually think the VSCC’s three out of five rule has saved a lot of saloon Riley’s. As you can now buy replica Brooklands or Sprite chassis brand new there is little point cutting up a saloon chassis to make an inferior replica – although madly it still happens.
• Help direct cars to the most relevant owners – un-restored saloons to those who want to restore them and bare chassis to those who want to build a special.
• Ensure replica parts are very accurate and stamped to show they are a new part.
• Get as many minors on the road as possible.
basically what Ian and the vmr or doing already.
I actually think the VSCC’s three out of five rule has saved a lot of saloon Riley’s. As you can now buy replica Brooklands or Sprite chassis brand new there is little point cutting up a saloon chassis to make an inferior replica – although madly it still happens.
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Mike Stubbings
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:41 pm
Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
Unfortunately they are not always inferior, some are damned good and will eventually be passed of as original. The argument that it is cheaper to build a replica open as against rebuilding an original saloon is often used as an excuse. I have seen damn good restorable Riley saloons with good reusable wings bonnet and skin scrapped in favour of a replica 2str open and by the time the windscreen is made along with the wings, bonnet etc and body frame and skinning of course it costs a damn lot more. Lets be honest a lot of us would rather drive an open sports than a saloon, and maybe there lies the truth. What people choose to do with their cars is there own business and if they want to break it up that is up to them. I would suggest though that if you have a restorable saloon and you wish to break it up. Do not separate it from its original chassis,offer it in exchange to someone who wants a saloon and is willing to rebuild it and who only has a bare chassis.Should not be a problem if there are that many Minor chassis floating around. Mike
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Sam Christie
- Posts: 186
- Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:37 am
Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
I find talk about 'originality' confusing at times for the term seems to vary in meaning. Is there a strict RAC definition ? I know these philosophical discussions recur.
I interpret a truly 'original' car to be one which still has the body,upholstery,glass,paint, chassis engine etc etc with which it left the factory..... But by this strict definition most vintage cars which are used are not 'original'.
Many (possibly most) open vintage cars have bodies which contain little or nothing of the 'original'. It is a little like the old gentleman's pipe which he claims he has smoked for fifty years.
If someone found a genuine £100 Minor body stored in the loft of a country garage and fitted it to a perfectly restored rolling chassis, correct in every detail except that it had once carried a saloon body, would it be more or less original or worse than a similar but 'genuine' £100 Minor rolling chassis with a replica body ?
I think part of the problem with 'originality' is defining it only by the number stamped on the dumbiron.
I love to see 'original' cars but they are very rare indeed and contrary to to what one might think they do not seem to be much in demand. Say an almost perfectly original car appeared in The Vintage Minor Marketplace -
"First registered 29/4/31........ Reputed 4,600 miles since new.... this amazing car..
Being offered at £7,500 with recent MoT and ready to go...."
would it really sell any better than a well restored one ? What do you do with the almost perfectly original car once you own it ? Do you drive it or keep it in a museum or bring it out now and again to impress your friends ? I have a low mileage 1933 saloon car (not a Morris) which is amazingly original including original paint, yellowed glass original wood steel.. everything ...and I really don't know what to do with it other than preserve it.
If I had a good replica £100 Minor which looked in every detail and smelled and sounded like a real £100 Minor (or even better an OHC Semi Sports) I would drive it and enjoy it and break it and fix it.... Does it really feel more virtuous to break an 'original'?
I interpret a truly 'original' car to be one which still has the body,upholstery,glass,paint, chassis engine etc etc with which it left the factory..... But by this strict definition most vintage cars which are used are not 'original'.
Many (possibly most) open vintage cars have bodies which contain little or nothing of the 'original'. It is a little like the old gentleman's pipe which he claims he has smoked for fifty years.
If someone found a genuine £100 Minor body stored in the loft of a country garage and fitted it to a perfectly restored rolling chassis, correct in every detail except that it had once carried a saloon body, would it be more or less original or worse than a similar but 'genuine' £100 Minor rolling chassis with a replica body ?
I think part of the problem with 'originality' is defining it only by the number stamped on the dumbiron.
I love to see 'original' cars but they are very rare indeed and contrary to to what one might think they do not seem to be much in demand. Say an almost perfectly original car appeared in The Vintage Minor Marketplace -
"First registered 29/4/31........ Reputed 4,600 miles since new.... this amazing car..
Being offered at £7,500 with recent MoT and ready to go...."
would it really sell any better than a well restored one ? What do you do with the almost perfectly original car once you own it ? Do you drive it or keep it in a museum or bring it out now and again to impress your friends ? I have a low mileage 1933 saloon car (not a Morris) which is amazingly original including original paint, yellowed glass original wood steel.. everything ...and I really don't know what to do with it other than preserve it.
If I had a good replica £100 Minor which looked in every detail and smelled and sounded like a real £100 Minor (or even better an OHC Semi Sports) I would drive it and enjoy it and break it and fix it.... Does it really feel more virtuous to break an 'original'?
Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
I must admit that I have had much pleasure (and a few frustrations!) over the years when owning a highly UN-original car and then first learning what IS original and then hunting down the needed parts at autojumbles and from friends with similar cars - and spares, to make it more original - in specification at least.
But I am a firm believer that the most important thing is to drive our cars, and worry about their originality (i.e. lack thereof) second. There is no point in prolonging a restoration ONE DAY because you can't find that last widget to make it 'correct'. Drive it, enjoy it, and fit that elusive part if and when you find it.
You are right that there isn't any demand for original Minors. We have a couple of wonderfully original fabric saloons on offer right now and they have been on the market for ages.
Incidentally, I have had just one inquiry for a Hundred Pound body, but remember Toby's rare and original CMS ash frame? We tried everything to find it a good home, but failed, and now it will grace the chassis of another marque and be a loss to the Minor world. I am at a loss to know what to do to generate ANY demand for our cars - any suggestions?
But I am a firm believer that the most important thing is to drive our cars, and worry about their originality (i.e. lack thereof) second. There is no point in prolonging a restoration ONE DAY because you can't find that last widget to make it 'correct'. Drive it, enjoy it, and fit that elusive part if and when you find it.
You are right that there isn't any demand for original Minors. We have a couple of wonderfully original fabric saloons on offer right now and they have been on the market for ages.
Incidentally, I have had just one inquiry for a Hundred Pound body, but remember Toby's rare and original CMS ash frame? We tried everything to find it a good home, but failed, and now it will grace the chassis of another marque and be a loss to the Minor world. I am at a loss to know what to do to generate ANY demand for our cars - any suggestions?
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evosteve
Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
Hi i have a 1932 2 seater tourer to restore which needs a new frame so i would be interested in a new frame !so i can speed up the restoration so i can enjoy the car the main reason i bought the car !!!
i dont want a museum car i want to use it while petrol is still available !
i also have a 1933 saloon !
how many cars left out there are as they left the factory? and havent been modified in any shape or form ?
most of the cars that have been restored have been upgraded to make them more relieable!
the fun is in the driving these cars !
i hope we can find enough people to make some frames and put some more cars back on the road
cheers steve
i dont want a museum car i want to use it while petrol is still available !
i also have a 1933 saloon !
how many cars left out there are as they left the factory? and havent been modified in any shape or form ?
most of the cars that have been restored have been upgraded to make them more relieable!
the fun is in the driving these cars !
i hope we can find enough people to make some frames and put some more cars back on the road
cheers steve
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Mike Stubbings
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:41 pm
Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
No one has suggested that we want museum cars. Mike
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prharris25
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:02 pm
- Location: Liss, Hampshire.
Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
I repeat my concern that a load of replica bodies (as admirable as it may be to put various collections of bits and pieces resembling a Minor back on the road, presumably with yet another Swansea re-issued modern number ) presents a very real danger that one day they are going to be passed off as originals. So many cars are now bereft of their correct numbers that this in itself is no longer a warning that all might not be well elsewhere in the vehicle.
It has happened in the larger Morris world.
It has happened in the larger Morris world.
Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
Paul, I certainly understand your viewpoint - we have to be super-vigilant, but here's a classic example - currently on offer on eBay. According to the seller, the roof has collapsed and the rear body is in poor condition. Let's say you can pick it up for under a thousand Pounds. What on earth would you do with it then? You could commence a monumental rebuild which would cost many times the potential value of the finished car and take years (and you would have to replace most if not all of the original body anyway - has ANYBODY yet successfully managed to restore a Minor saloon from this state?). Certainly, such an undertaking would call for enormous dedication, skill and wallet - but there are simply not nearly enough potential owner/restorers out there would would be willing to shoulder such a monumental undertaking. But the mechanics are probably easily restorable, and the Minor chassis frame is sturdy and rarely rusts too far to repair easily. Personally, I would far rather see this car in two years time running round as a sports 2-seater of some sort than see it rot further into the brambles, or worse still, be pulled to pieces by someone with more enthusiasm than resources, and with virtually no chance of ever seeing the road again, as so many have already. And, after surviving for over 75 years, surely it would be sacrilege to see it broken up for spares. Of course, any car that can reasonably be saved in its original form should be, and the owners given every support and encouragement, but for all those whose bodies are simply too far gone, but have generally sound mechanics, then I believe breaking for spares should be avoided at all cost.
It will be very interesting to see what happens to this one.
Philippe Prigent over in France has an interesting OHC sports special, which was also acquired on eBay back in January 2006:
The body is very much like an Austin 7 Ulster, and should be relatively simple to reproduce. Cheap but stylish period body, cheap cycle wings, and performance would certainly be better than a saloon! Nobody would suggest to Philippe that he return this car back to its original state - by building it a new fabric saloon body! We know it was a fabric saloon because we have the build data for all Minors, so nobody will ever be able to deny its origins. A real conundrum, is it not, and a fascinating debate. Anyone bidding on the saloon?
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prharris25
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:02 pm
- Location: Liss, Hampshire.
Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
We all have our different views, but if I was going to rip off what appears to be a restorable (albeit needing much effort) saloon body and replace it with some home made job which never saw the light of the Cowley works, I'd far rather just build a modern kit car which would go and stop properly in modern conditions and with safe lighting. I hope somebody saves this little car and restores it with love and for what it is......a charming little saloon which I would like to think probably once belonged to the lady of the house whilst the master was driven to his office in the Morris Oxford Twenty with which it shared the motor house in the Garden of England !
Take away the body and what have you left ?... a chassis frame and two axles. The original registration has doubtless been sold off (non transferable number) and the engine block probably cracked so in would go a Morris Eight unit to be followed by yet another two seater body of doubtful quality. No, sorry... I would either restore this with care over a long period or walk away from it totally with heavy heart and start on the kit car !
Take away the body and what have you left ?... a chassis frame and two axles. The original registration has doubtless been sold off (non transferable number) and the engine block probably cracked so in would go a Morris Eight unit to be followed by yet another two seater body of doubtful quality. No, sorry... I would either restore this with care over a long period or walk away from it totally with heavy heart and start on the kit car !
Re: Hundred Pound ash frames
Don't get me wrong Paul, I'm with you 100% - the problem is that what we would like to see happen - isn't happening! I'd lay good money that this saloon will never see the road as a saloon again - or indeed in any form. It is depressing to pore over photos of hundreds of Minors in perilous condition, knowing that most, if not all, will never be rebuilt, particularly when my Early MG Society magazine falls through the letterbox and is filled with wonderful restoration articles and the gorgeous looking results. If anyone has any ideas how we might change this dynamic for the better for Minors, then I'm all ears!