Rear Axle.

[Highlander]

You will have read about the clunking from the rear axle when pushing the minor out of the garage. This has put the fear of God up me so today I had a good look underneath with the car jacked up. All seemed well. When turning the road wheels in revearse I could make it clunk (Holding the pinion in) Here is todays question. I have a fabric coupling on the rear and a hardy spicer on the front and the propshaft moves a quarter of an inch (maybe a little more) in and out. When looking closely at the rear coupling and moving this in and out I noticed that everything moved i.e. the pinion!! Can this be right? Looking at the diagram in the handbook, which is very good and detailed, the flange which takes the coupling is bolted to the pinion by a large split pinned nut. How can all this move in and out?? I am at a loss and will not drive the minor until I am sure in my mind if all is well. As a non engineer, if I had not pushed the minor out of the garage and just drove off as usual I would have hear nothing and carried on as I have for the past 5 years. Is everything OK or am I worrying too much. Urgent help please. Highlander. PS From yesterdays blogg (somewhere) my axle may not be a standard 1933 morris minor.

[Ian Grace]

A quarter inch movement of the pinion definitely isn't good. I'm not sure what the end float should be exactly, but this is far too much!

[Simon]

Alister. It sounds as if the ball race at the front of the pinion has broken up, I had something similar on the Jensen which has a series E Morris Eight diff unit. Is there any sideways movement of the pinion relative to the differential casing and also is the diff casing aluminium or steel. I await your reply. Whatever the answer the diff unit will have to be removed from the axle.

[ian judd]

I had exactly those symptons less than a month ago! When I jacked up a rear wheel and moved it forward and back the pinion moved in and out. I thought that the pinion bearing had broken so I got another diff out which luckily only needed cleaning and adjusting by a local gearbox rebuilders. When I took out the old one I found that most of one tooth had broken off and that when the crownwheel got to that point the pinion moved in and out.
I have heard that the MOT brake test puts a lot of strain on these gears but I also suspect that the many speed bumps I have to contend with probably don't ancient gears any good.
Swapping the diff is not a job I would look forward to but if you have everything you need ready, you can get it done in two or three hours. You can make the gaskets yourself easily enough.
Anyway, I reckon you are going to have to take it out. (Sorry to be the bearer of bad news!)

[Ian Grace]

Alister, I think I have a good spare diff. of the right Minor type localish to you if you need one.

[Highlander]

Thank you all for your speedy answers. I will take the bull by the horns and take the unit out. It is not difficult but what will I find??!! Unsure what axle I have but when it is all on the bench we can take it from there. Looking at the diagram in the Service information sheet SV9 it must be the bearing breaking up, if that is all I will be pleased. Looking at this drawing, I do not have the filler hole and plug on the pinion side. Mine fills from the rear. The nose casing with the pinion is finned and looks steel but will run a file across tomorrow. I take it the the fore and aft movement of the propshaft at the gear box end is when the springs flex. No movement should be at the rear, pinion end. Am I correct? It states that this is a simple job (!) since the diff carrier, complete with drive pinion, can be removed from the axle by withdrawing the half shafts, etc!!! It does not say how the haft shafts are removed. Is this easy? Looks as through the heaters will be on in the work shop this week end. Again thanks for your help. It means a lot. Highlander.

[Ian Grace]

Hi Alister,

Pleased that you find the Forum useful!

OK - to remove the diff. isn't a big deal. I haven't taken one out of a cat with a Hardy Spicer sliding joint at the front before, but it has to be easier than the standard prop shaft with two fabric couplings. You'll obviously have to remove the prop shaft first, as the diff. must come out forwards. But to do this, you'll need to get the half shafts out of the way. This is very simple. Jack up one side, wheel off, brake drum off. Then the diff. and outer half of the hub are ready to be withdrawn. It may need gently persuading if any gasket sealant was used on the paper gasket between the outer and inner hub halves. You can GENTLY tap a sharp chisel between them to break the seal. Once the hub outer and half shaft are out, you can replace the brake drum and wheel loosely - enough to stand the car back down on the ground. Then do the other side. Or, if you have two jacks axle stands (I wouldn't recommend working under the car with it on two axle stands!), you can do both together and leave the wheels off.

Then all you need to do is undo the ring of nuts holding the diff. into the axle casing and lift it out forwards. And if you didn't fill the axle, there will be no need to drain it first!

While the half shafts are out, this would be a good time to see if you have any axle shaft seals in the outboard ends of the axle casing. The car didn't have these originally, but they are a good idea as they help stop oil getting from the diff. into the brakes. Mike Dowley (01939/210458) should have seals if you need them - just note that they are left/right handed so as to 'screw' oil inboard when the car is moving in a forward direction - if you see what I mean. Also, you can check the rear brake linings for oil soaking at this point. If the hubs came away cleanly without tearing the hub gaskets, then they can be used again. if not, either make some from gasket paper or pick up some from Mike - they are not expensive.

Once you have the diff. out, you'll find a super article on diffs. in the Members' Area which should help. If I think of anything else, or realise I've forgotten something, I'll post tomorrow. Good luck!

Hope this helps.

[cammy]

And I am sure you won't forget to remove any old swarf and bits of teeth from the housing.

[ian judd]

You will find two screw holes in the rim of the half-shaft. Use the brake drum screws in these to part the two halves of the hub. It might be worth having a spare locking ring handy as the tab which fits in the groove in the axle has a habit of breaking off. I used two axle stands with chocks under the front wheels. If you have to use a diff with a steel casing you will find they are surprisingly heavy so you need to be right underneath. I couldn't get right under but I managed to do it from above by holding it with my fingers in the gear end and swinging it into the axle - the weight holds it in - then I went back below and wiggled it the rest of the way. You should only have to undo the rear propshaft coupling because the shaft will tilt out of the way.
Paper gaskets are so easily made its not worth buying them. All you need is a small ball-pein hammer - put brown paper on the metal part( for example the end of the half-shaft) and gently tap round it with the hammer end. Use the ball part of the hammer to make the holes.You can make one in a minute.
All the best.

[Highlander]

First may I thank everyone you has answered by problem re my back axle. Mike has asked a question on another blog (is that the word?) ddo members read our questions and if so why not answer? Those that have many thanks. To day in Surrey (Sat 23rd) is a cold but very sunny day so I did take the bull by the horns and got cracking. I like working in the open as the light is better and I have much more room for my long legs sticking out from u8nder the car! These days I sit on an old milking stool when working at wheel level. Problem one - one wheel stud was broken and the other two nut were too loose for my liking - I thought I had solved my problem - WRONG. Brake drums off and everything looks fine. The half shaft fell off!!! No screwing, tapping, just a slight pull. The other side just the same except the tab washer that holds the backplate to the axle and the nut were loose!!. This half shaft just pulled off. One shalt had a nice bronze bush at the brake end whilst the other had a strip of cork wrapped round and held by tape!! Could not undo the drain plug and did not want to brake it so left it in. My clinically clean white enamel washing up bowl, used for panning for iron filings etc!!! placed under the axle to catch any oil. Not a lot of room under a minor but no trouble undoing the ring of nuts and undoing the fabric coupling on the prop shaft. As someone mentioned the crownwheel and pinion 'lump' is quite heavy and the white bowl is now filling with thick oil. On the bench I started to clean in another white bowl and I began to see the problem. The pinion trust bearing had collapsed. The pinion came out of its housing too easily and the ball bearing (trust bearing) was not there!!! About five whole ball bearings came out, five or six half balls came out, the casing was in 1000 bits and the rest must have been mashed up balls!!!. This did not happen overnight. Just how long I cannot guess. I have driven the minor hard ever since I got her (5 years this month). I think the new, hard, nfibre coupling kept everything central. It had got very hot as the pinion was blue. The pinion itself had a third of a tooth missi8ng - again not yesterday. The pinion is marked:- ?/43 MOWOG. The outer casing marked 8 43 S . The pinion is 6 and a quarter inches long. The crownwheel and innards look fine. I* am loath to take the crownwheel apart - is this wise? I am also very strapped for cash and would put a preplacement pinionstraight back in - I can hear deep intakes of breath!!!! Does anyone have a spare pinion ? Paul will know - what axle have I got? All the above only took an old man 2 hours. I take it bearings are no problem. I do thank you all for interest shown - A problem shared etc. Off to watch the Rugby. Scotland for ever. Highlander.

[prharris25]

I am no expert on this, but from what you say Alistair I reckon you have a Morris 8 diff installed in a Minor axle case. The diff might be an early pre-series 8 (1934/5) as you say that it has the flexible coupling. Equally somebody may well have swopped over the flange for one of the Minor "spiders". From memory, the ratio sounds to be Morris 8.
All but the earliest Morris 8's had either 5 or 6 (can't remember now) wheel studs, so whilst it is possible you have an early 8 axle axle (i.e three hub studs and flexi coupling), I think you said that you had the Minor type rear detachable diff pan with horizontal brass filler plug half way or so down the casing...which makes it a Minor axle in my view.

Having kept all sorts of decrepit machinery on the road for the past 45 years, I am no perfectionist, but I really wouldn't mate a strange pinion to an existing crown wheel, with new bearings...asking for trouble and likely, at best, to be noisy.
Far better find another secondhand diff unit...even another M8 one. Did Ian not say he had one ? Or that saviour of Morris 8 owners, Dave Parrish in West London ? Worth trying. You also need a new hub by the sound of it !

The bronze oil scroll at the brake drum end has me foxed a bit......none of my Minors when I got them had anything (should they have done folks?) but I soon fitted the Morris 8 type cork ones which stood up well to my hard everyday use at the time.

So, not to despair Alistair. Chuck out the broken bits, find a diff and hub and whilst you are waiting clean everything up ready. I bet there's a lot of swarf in the axle case.
It's all apart now, so half way there !!
By the way, how did you get Management approval to watch the Rugby?
I've been on the roof (the house, not the 10/4) scraping moss off all afternoon !!

Paul.

[Toby]

Good luck! Couple of points-you can get modern oil seals to fit the half shafts, Simon has the details I believe and they should be better than anything else? Also I noticed mention of the MOT brake test causing strain to the drivetrain, if you have wire wheels then you can insist on them using a Tapley meter instead of the rolling road. This came about after the disintegration of spoked wheels after brake testing and every MOT tester has to have a Tapley meter for this reason. I find if you insist on this they usually give up and just take it up the road to test braking efficiency and evenness!!!

[Ian Grace]

Alister,

Toby has a couple of diffs. of mine at his place. Help yourself to whatever you need that is any use and owe me a beer at the next rally!

[Highlander]

Here we are not 24 hours from posting a question and I have had half a dozen replies on what to do, I have done that and posted more questions and half a dozen more replies - wonderful and thank you all. Ian, may I take you up on your offer of a spare diff unit, Toby used to live in Reading but was moving to Everton in Hampshire - have you moved Toby? We have friends in Everton and it would be no trouble to pick it up. It was not an oil scrol on the half shafts - it looked like a plain bronze bush - inch and quarter long. The other side had what looked the same but cork strip held by tape. I thought these perhaps kept the half shaft central? Would you have a bronze oil seal? Ian Judd rightly mention road humps as a possible cause of my problem. We have hundreds of the b...y thing in my part of Surrey and my minor takes off when going over them even at walking pace, everytime I go over one I think I should not be doing this.It must cause a terrific strain on something, the springs must straighten out flat for a second and where does all that flex go? When you think about it - something happened to start it all off - once the breakdown has occurred the wear just gets worse. My axle dip stick is very well made and when pushed home clips onto the casing. Nothing more to report only to tell Paul I watched the rugby (how pleased I am to be Scottish!!!) because management had been to the M and S sale yesterday!!!!!!!!

[Highlander]

Ian, Thank you for your kind offer - yes please, Trying to contact Toby - is he away? I want to get back on the road for my Father Christmas act. Highlander.