Over restoration?

[chris lambert]

There is a comment elsewhere on the forum concerning over restoration of old cars in general and the potential for such on the Norfolk Fabric Saloon in particular. What is over restoration? Is it the use of modern paints for instance, or the fitting of indicators or rear lights that can be seen by other road users? If so, then I hold my hand up to this crime. Is over restoration the use of a Phoenix crank, a 12/12 cam (on our Saloons and Tourers) or the use of a component made of plastic because a 'wallet' won't run to the expense of a newly machined metal part? Perhaps it is the fitting of an alternator in place of a dynamo? I hear a lot about about over restoration, but nobody has taken the trouble to define it. Is this the same argument as Originality, which is the holy grail of many?
My view for what it is worth is that of a pragmatist. If by fitting a non standard part, which is freely available and will do the job I require of it, my car is back on the road quicker than having to either wait for a part to be manufactured, or pay an extortionate amount of cash for, then I will go for the shortcut. If my safety, or that of my passenger, is at stake, I will take the safety first rule even if my car becomes a little less original as a result. Controversial? Discuss!!
Chris

[cammy]

I agree in general with you Chris but I would add the words "sympathetic and in keeping" to the discussion.
Also each car is owned by an individual and what right do others have to impose their thoughts and values on anyone?
NG 850 has had some terrible things done to her over the years and these will be put right. Nuff said.

[Ken Martin]

Chris - this one never gets resolved but it is fun tring to find concensus! Over restoration is to work towards a standard of finish bodily and mecahically that exceeds that provided by the manufacturer. With a car like the Norfolk Minor the purest view is to do the absolute minimum amount of dismantling, replacement and refurbishment to get the car roadworthy and reliable. This is under restoration but also conservation. Most of us have over restored our cars in some area. Modifications should be reversible. Safety is paramount.

[Toby]

Hmmm, I'd think that over restoraton is as Ken said-exceeding spec. I don't mean fitting hydraulic brakes etc. that's modification, I mean the sort of thing such as my brothers VA tourer, it has a chrome dash and handbrake, when valued the valuer said it was over restored which apparently appeals to the American market! At the end of the day I guess it's a case of whatever floats your boat, for me it's a vehicle that has a hint of "used" about it and represents how the vehicle was when in regular use, but that doesn't mean I can't admire a newly restored car. Just remember "it aint the chrome that gets you home" as bikers say.

[halbe]

Restoration and conservation are the two keywords in my opinion regarding the restoration of VC2007.
Over restoration mostly means finishing a car to a much higher cosmetical standard than the factory used to.
There comes a time in the life of a car, when the owner has to decide whether he/she can use a car as is, or that something more drastical is necessary.
On the technical side safety should never be an issue, so I’ll make sure that all component’s are perfectly save. If that means changing original parts for new ones, so be it.
I’ll never use the old wiring , brake cables or use new old stock tyres but there are more less obvious items.
Using the old crankshaft and conrods without cracktesting them might result in doing more damage than using a new one.
Now cosmetically speaking I think that when the original finish is beyond saving, rust is one of the culprits, one should strive for the ‘original’ factory finish. I’ll need the experts to tell me what that is on my minor.
So no Pebble Beach standard for me please!!


Regards Halbe

[Ken Martin]

Hi Halbe - you seem to have exactly the right approach for your exceptional car. It is so difficult to restrain yourself when confronted with a job of renovation like you have taken on. There is an owner of a Standard saloon who enters VSCC - LC&ES rallies in an unrestored car and he has strong views on restoration in general, airing these on a small poster in a rear window. He evidently only does sufficient work to maintain the car in safe roadworthy condition. Mike Worthington-Williams (the journalist) seems to share this view as his well known and huge vintage Austin saloon called 'Arthur' has loads of character and is apparently in daily use, but it is very scruffy. These cars are a joy to see because of how they are.

[chris lambert]

Halbe,
The car to which Ken makes reference is shown below. It has much in common with your car. It is a blue fabric saloon, and has a very similar registration plate. If anything your saloon is the less scruffy looking of the two!





These images were taken at the start of the 2005 VSCC Suffolk Tour

[ashford]

Its good to see the picture of the standard. I drove past this car while in an Austin seven chummy in a lane somewhere in Sussex last year. If it had been a restored standard nine I would probably never have remembered it or recognised it!
I think this car is great left in its present state but there are obviously borderline cases (more derelict) where it is much more difficult to decide if 'full restoration' is needed. A car left in original state is perhaps more susceptable to decay?
Another approach is the red Bugatti 35C that appeared on the racing scene a few years ago. It has a totally restored rolling chassis but the body has been left untouched. I think there is some sense in this. If you have an old house, you want to make sure the roof is good to protect everything else but re-decorating the inside doesn't necessarily do a lot for preservation.
Re wiring a car can look awful if done badly. Is re-wiring always necessary?

[halbe]

This discusion about over-restoration is actually very usefull, good to read the different opinions regarding restorations and preserving the past.
On VC the fabric is 60% ok but brittle,the other 40% looks like this. totaly dried out and torn




I would think this needs replacing with new material?
The right stepping board(don't know this word) and lowerpart of the body looks like this.
Surely something needs to be done here!



Replacing about 40% of the material with new fabric in my opinion would look pretty stupid so I think that i will have to replace it all.
For me restoring a car is also dealing with this difficult dilema , at witch point do you stop preserving and start replacing?

Regards Halbe

[Ian Grace]

Halbe,

I agree that the exterior fabric should be changed in this case, but you have enough of the original material to get all the stitch lines, etc. as original.

As for the interior, you may choose to keep that intact - it doesn't look to bad?

One problem is that no modern fabrics are exactly like the Morris original (or at least I couldn't find any). I ran into this problem with the Semi-sports. Modern materials are thicker and the exterior fabric less shiny. The thickness problem hits you when you are trying to recover the interior trim panels, and you have about six layers folded over each other at the corners!

Have you had a chance to check out the condition of the ash frame itself?

[halbe]

Hi Chris,

I agree ,change exterior to the original design. With all the seams ect ect.
For the interior, only the headlining is torn really bad around the edges so this will have to be changed.




But this also means that I can repair the rest using the original material from the headlining, so that will look just fine.
All the trim panels are fine and all the fitting are also still there!!
The ash frame does appear to be pretty sound, but it is hard to judge the amount of woodwurm right now.
I really need to take all the fabric off to make a good accesment off the frame, but right now it looks and feels pretty good.
The more I look at the car, i get the feeling that VC wasn't used very much.
For instance there is no play on the pedals,doors ,all the smith shockabsorbers stil work fine.
I'll find out when taking everything appart!
I think I can start the restoration next month, I want to finish the Aston first.


Halbe

[David Whittle]

Dear Halbe

Rip that old body off and burn it on the bonfire - then fit a replica MG M body, then its back to your first idea of having an M type MG!










Only Joking!!!!!!!!!!! - Or am I

[Ian Grace]

Er - that's what happened to the rest of them.

[halbe]

Hi David,

I don't know about you, but I would rather have a decent pint than a bottle of fake champagne

Halbe

[David Whittle]

Hi David,

I don't know about you, but I would rather have a decent pint than a bottle of fake champagne

Halbe

Halbe

Ah but would you rather date a real woman who is 'fat and ugly' or a 'young Bridget Bardot' lookalike? I'll take the latter, she can drink your fake champagne, whilst I inbibe the pint of 'Old Farty'!